Members' Opinion Polls
|Message board > Members' Opinion Polls > Members' poll: What is your 2k PW?|
|What is your 2k PW?|
That's Personal Worst if it's not obvious - only counting pieces you started with the intention of doing a flat out 2k, and discounting any you didn't finish
|by PW = 7:30 or thereabouts - Fri 10th Dec 2004, 9:25pm|
|Might be interesting to find out how many people obtained their PW from their first ever 2k.|
And for everyone else, why their PW was as bad a result as it was.
|by Dubya - Sat 11th Dec 2004, 5:26pm|
|Yes perhaps RTT could explain how he came to achieve his PW while trialling for CULRC.|
|by RTT - Mon 13th Dec 2004, 8:51am|
Dubya said: Yes perhaps RTT could explain how he came to achieve his PW while trialling for CULRC.I didn't. My PW is 7:14.7 which I did whilst everyone was on the Georgina on their way to The Plough for Fairbairns dinner 1998.
Though my first effort for CULRC, at 7:14.2, was my second worst.
|by jmg - Mon 13th Dec 2004, 11:27am|
Though my first effort for CULRC, at 7:14.2, was my second worst.That must have been a tough last 500m when you realised you were on for a PW?
|by sarah - Mon 13th Dec 2004, 5:22pm|
|sometimes finishing (rather than giving up) is better no matter how bad the score is...|
|by Ingers - Mon 13th Dec 2004, 9:48pm|
|What the hell do you meant 'sometimes'?|
|by Tom C - Tue 14th Dec 2004, 12:00am|
|I don't get it. Sometimes at the beginning of term you don't have a good enough idea of your fitness to pace it properly, start off too optimistically and and halfway realise your score's going to be shit. Finishing the piece doesn't provide any useful information, whereas if you stop you can do the test later, getting the information and practising a good race.|
|by RTT - Tue 14th Dec 2004, 8:56am|
Tom C said: Finishing the piece doesn't provide any useful informationIt proves you're hard. If you've done too little training to know how well you're going to perform, it's better to show that you're nails when in agony than that you're soft. The sort of person that gives up on a 2k is the sort of person that gives up when Maggie are 2 ft off your stern.
|by jmg - Tue 14th Dec 2004, 9:06am|
RTT said: It proves you're hard.This is kind of true, though there's a fine line between being hard and being foolish.
My preferred way of doing a 2k when I don't know how fit I am is to go off hard then back off slightly during the 2nd 500m (which is when I generally find I realise whether it's going to be a good one or a bad one) before taking a stab at what to aim for for the last 1000m. I reckon this gives close to the best possible time across quite a wide range of fitness levels, rather than being optimistic off the start and running the risk of a shit time at the end.
Far better, though, to do 7-800m at 2k pace and see how that feels, as you won't kill yourself and it will give you a good idea of what you're capable of before it gets really painful.
|by RTT - Tue 14th Dec 2004, 9:28am|
jmg said: This is kind of true, though there's a fine line between being hard and being foolish.I thought it was a given that you're being foolish! Thinking about a sensible strategy (like yours) beforehand should avoid any disastrous times or reasons to give up. I was just saying that having set out to do a 2k, giving up after doing the first 1200m too fast is soft. You wouldn't want a crew member to do that in a race, so you shouldn't trust them if they do that on an erg.
|by jmg - Tue 14th Dec 2004, 10:09am|
RTT said: I thought it was a given that you're being foolish! Thinking about a sensible strategy (like yours) beforehand should avoid any disastrous times or reasons to give up. I was just saying that having set out to do a 2k, giving up after doing the first 1200m too fast is soft. You wouldn't want a crew member to do that in a race, so you shouldn't trust them if they do that on an erg.Right, but I don't want to encourage anyone to think it's ok to go off too hard because excessive pain somehow equates to achievement. Blowing up on the water is doubly as bad because it affects both your power output and your technique (and therefore the ability of everyone else in the boat to put down power) so I wouldn't take much reassurance into a race from having seen one of my crewmates blow up on a 2k and then pluckily finish it off.
|by Tom C - Tue 14th Dec 2004, 12:43pm|
RTT said: I thought it was a given that you're being foolish! Thinking about a sensible strategy (like yours) beforehand should avoid any disastrous times or reasons to give up. I was just saying that having set out to do a 2k, giving up after doing the first 1200m too fast is soft. You wouldn't want a crew member to do that in a race, so you shouldn't trust them if they do that on an erg.You equally wouldn't want a crew member to go off too hard and be ineffective later on. There are better ways of learning to be hard than 2ks, surely the point of a 2k is to learn how to put the most amount of work down over a race?
|by Ingers - Tue 14th Dec 2004, 10:55pm|
|I refer back to Rose and Glass's points. It is perfectly possible to throttle back if you have gone off a bit too fast whether you are on an ergo or in a race. It is not a question of just trying to look hard but a question of how you can cope with an unfavourable sequence of events, be it excessive lactate at 800m or Maggie 2ft off your stern.|
It reveals a lot about a person and it is why we have defined 2k tests on certain days. It reveals how you will do 'on the day'. If an absurd situation arose where you were allowed three races and took only your best result then in that case only can I see giving up being an option as you can then concentrate on the next race.
Races are not won by the crew that _could_ go fastest if they paced themselves better but by the crew that _did_ go fastest.
|by Tom C - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 12:18am|
|Nah. Races happen at the end of term, and are important. 2k tests happen at the beginning, and are one of many sessions on the route to making the race as good as possible, useful but not really important. You want every training session to be as good as possible, so if you have a chance to stop before it turns bad and do it again, it makes sense to do so. Also if you realise that you're more ill than you thought it's best not to damage yourself further.|
Getting into trouble halfway through a race is something you train to avoid, so why practise it? It doesn't reveal how you'll do on the day, it's a first step towards learning what to do in the race, and I'd prefer to start learning a good race than a bad one.
|by Simon - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 8:28am|
Tom C said: Getting into trouble halfway through a race is something you train to avoid, so why practise it? It doesn't reveal how you'll do on the day, it's a first step towards learning what to do in the race, and I'd prefer to start learning a good race than a bad one.Someone once defined champions as people who could beat the best on their worst performance. It is important to visualise the race in all positions - good and bad. The important things is that whatever position you are in, you are relaxed and you deal with it. A 2k is just one way of visualising this - if you go off too hard in a 2k you are likely to do exactly the same in a race (in fact it is far easier because you don't get the numbers in a race) and you need to have been through that 2k experience to deal with the race.
Stopping on a 2k is failure - and it is important for a champion to build up an attitude of not failing - of success.
Apart from the individual factors, as has already been mentioned, there are the team components. Firstly if you are doing assess 2ks you are likely to be doing it next to someone - stopping will put them off more than anything else! Secondly we have all known people who have stopped a number of times on 2ks (or for that matter for gives up) and you have to question whether you trust that person not to do that in a race.
|by Rich - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 10:07am|
Tom C said: Nah. Races happen at the end of term, and are important. 2k tests happen at the beginning, and are one of many sessions on the route to making the race as good as possible, useful but not really important. You want every training session to be as good as possible, so if you have a chance to stop before it turns bad and do it again, it makes sense to do so. Also if you realise that you're more ill than you thought it's best not to damage yourself further.I'll concede that if you're ill there is value to not putting yourself out of action.
But I disagree entirely otherwise - 2Ks are not a training session, they're a test. They're to see how fast you can go in a race situation, and to prove to yourself that you can take the pain. They are SUPPOSED to hurt, as are races - otherwise you're not going as quickly as you can. If you don't get used to battling through the pain, then you're never going to achieve your potential. I have had many races where after a reasonably small amount of time I have realised that I am going to be in very serious pain, and it has crossed my mind that it would be fantastic to stop. But I haven't, and I've found that (sometimes almost unbelievably) I've made it to the end of the race, albeit in a pretty bad way. This is not, in my view, proof that I've taken it off too hard and suffered the consequences, but that I've raced right on the red line and therefore maximised my output. 2Ks are just like that - they're not going to give you any physiological benefit, but they're immensely character building and informative about how you deal with a tough situation. They will always hurt, in fact will probably hurt the most when you do the "perfect" 2K. If you stop then you're just making a statement to yourself that stopping, giving up, is okay. I don't believe it is - and given the outcry about Sally Robbins in the Olympics, it seems the rest of the rowing community is pretty much in agreement.
|by jmg - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 11:43am|
2Ks are not a training session, they're a test.Yes... and no... there's clearly sometime special about doing an erg 'test', as it's the single opportunity you have (like a race) to put down your best time. If you're thinking about whether you're going to affect tomorrow's training session when you're half way through a 2k then you've got it all wrong - unless you treat a 2k as important then it's fairly pointless doing one(this is especially important if your seat in a boat is already secure, robbing you any 'real' motivation) as the physiological benefits are pretty small.
They will always hurt, in fact will probably hurt the most when you do the "perfect" 2K.
However, and if you ever saw Graham doing 2k you'll hopefully agree, I really don't think the 'perfect' 2k is the most painful. Certainly towards the end it's going to be pretty nasty, but in the same way as the first 2000m of a 5k are (in my experience) realtively pain-free, and much more a case of trying to calm down and think about technique and efficiency, the early stages of a 2k should be about composure, because if you fill your muscles with too much lactate early on you're going to be inefficient from there and score a poor time as a result. There's plenty of time to prove how hard you are later on, and having the mental strength to push on through 1200m, knowing you're on for a good time but not really believing you can make it to the end, is what really sorts the men from the boys.
|by random split generator - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 12:25pm|
jmg said: if you ever saw Graham doing 2k you'll hopefully agreeHaving done a large number of outstandingly terrible 2ks and just two half-decent ones, I can verify that the better ones hurt a lot less. In particular, the post-test feeling, while still less than comfortable, is significantly ameliorated by a degree of satisfaction at the result.
|by RJN - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 1:26pm|
random split generator said: I can verify that the better ones hurt a lot less.I agree. The most painful 2k I did was the one where i decided to take it off as hard as I could, and try to hold on for as long as I could. This tactic left me throwing up 30 mins after I had finished the 2k, and unable to go home for another 30 mins for fear of falling down the boat house stairs. The 2k I pulled for my pb, I was absolutely fine within 10 mins of finishing, other than for the 2k cough.
|by mjb - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 2:23pm|
random split generator said: ... I can verify that the better ones hurt a lot less.My most painful 2k was the one where I went off far too hard, realised this about 1200 to go, but decided to hang on as long as possible. Got to 500 or so to go and decided I'd like to stop as I was feeling definitely "not good" at that point, despite being on for a PB.
However, after being stopped for a few seconds, I got shouted at (by various people, to remain unnamed ...) to finish it off as I was so close to the end, so finished it rating 22 or so. Managed to stave off throwing up for about an hour afterwards, but by then was feeling a bit better so decided to start moving again. Unsurprisingly, I promptly threw up and felt a hell of a lot better. But my final time of 6.46.x was a PB (including the stop) and is still my second best.
With hindsight, though, I'm glad I ended up finishing it off
|by Mind over matter - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 4:54pm|
random split generator said: Having done a large number of outstandingly terrible 2ks and just two half-decent onesTwo half decent ones? Which are they :-) Sorry - couldn't resist.
I figure unless you turn up at the boathouse and suddenly get asked to do a totally unexpected 2k you have no excuse for not pacing half-way sensibly. You know in the first week of term there will be a test - do a 2 min piece at expected race pace the day before and see how that goes - more than enough info to then pace the 2k well enough to not have any excuse for stopping.
If you start a 2k with any excuses in your mind (illness, not sure of pace...) I suggest not starting at all.
You can train all term to row the perfect race but often in bumps your hand is forced and you must change tactics - eg race in an inefficient manner by caning the start and then fading. No-one practices that intentionally in a 2k but perhaps if you do go off too hard it isn't encouraging that you stop and do it another day - it's unlikely that you'll have that option on the water.
Ultimately it's just 6-7min, if you can't deal with that there's a problem.
|by Tom C - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 6:36pm|
|Well, each to their own, for me not finishing is less of a failure than a bad time. It would've been better for me if I hadn't finished my last 2k, but there were other reasons for that.|
After my best 2k I was pissed off cos I never felt like I was pushing it, but that probably meant I stayed quite efficient.
|by dw229 - Wed 15th Dec 2004, 10:33pm|
...do a 2 min piece at expected race pace the day before and see how that goes - more than enough info to then pace the 2k well enough to not have any excuse for stopping.I think this is correct. However, which would be frowned upon more by a FaT BC Captain?
If you start a 2k with any excuses in your mind (illness, not sure of pace...) I suggest not starting at all.
a) Rower turns up at boathouse and says he doesn't feel well enough to do a 2k and would rather do it another time
b) Rower turns up, blows up, stops
In my experience everyone just assumes you are lying if you do a). That is the problem and forces people to do b) unnecessarily.
|by jpd - Thu 16th Dec 2004, 12:06am|
dw229 said: In my experience everyone just assumes you are lying if you do a). That is the problem and forces people to do b) unnecessarily.The difficulty is that many people will naturally feel ill before doing a 2k anyway, so it's always going to be tough to work out who's genuinely ill and who isn't.
If you're not already doing so, I suggest you keep a record of your resting heart rate (when you wake up count number of heart beats in 15 or 30 seconds and multiply by four or two respectively before getting out of bed), weight and number of hours slept. If you plot these data against time you'll probably find patterns, and learn to spot a genuine illness early. Having said that, a raised heart rate on the morning of a 2k is quite normal. A lack of food/sleep/drink is no excuse either.
I'd also suggest recording all your erg scores and graphing them over time. If you plot scores for your power against time for each intensity (UT2, AT, etc.) you'll notice how much of a difference training properly - and not training at all - makes to your performance. I'm sure Ingers will agree with me.
Anyway, the best solution is to not stop training in the holidays - although having said that, given that we're starting second in the Lents I can't imagine for even a second that anybody wanting to be involved has. If you keep fit with cross training (anybody can do running and even circuits with a little imagination away from the gym) then one steady erg (even just 30 minutes at UT2) and a couple of short more intense sessions (17 stokes @ 2k pace/5 strokes @ UT2 repeated for 2k, 4 x 500m at 2k etc.) will be enough to sit confidently on the erg at the start knowing of what you are capable and to perform well in the test.
I always find that a 2k is an opportunity to see how well I'm doing, pull a PB and to beat or at least get closer to those that beat me by a few seconds last time. For me it's like going on a big roller coaster ride when I was eight years old: nervous while queuing; having to convince myself not to turn away at the front of the queue but then reminding myself how awesome it will feel after to have completed the challenge; feeling sick going up that first ramp; that great feeling of doing the thing of which I was scared and actually enjoying it (even when it hurts like hell this is possible); and then after that feeling of invincibility having made it to the end, taking away a result which you can keep forever in exchange of those few minutes of pain, and realising that actually it's not such an ordeal after all.
Some tactics I find helpful include: visualising the 2k in advance - what the rhythm is going to be like, when and what technical points I'm going to think about, pre-planned pushes etc.; how somebody like Matt Pinsent or Johnny Wilkinson (doesn't have to be a rower) would handle the pressure and pain of a 2k; thinking positively (having a can do attitude in business speak); and actually enjoying taking control of the test, not the other way round.
|by Simon - Fri 17th Dec 2004, 1:58pm|
jpd said: Some tactics I find helpful include:Try doing a 2k within 45 mins of finishing a (very nasty) 3 hour law exam. Worked for me - helped produce my pb at the time.
Also, an interesting aside for coxes - listen to what people shout at other people when they are coaching them through their 2ks. Chances are it's what they want to hear themselves (and possibly not what the person on the erg wants to hear - I used to hate people who said "imagine you've got [name of crew] three feet behind you" mid erg... I didn't have that, didn't want to imagine having that, and would rather have someone giving me technique calls (Rich Dewire was very good at this when getting the lower boats to do ergs as LBC) or commentary if I'm in a close "race" with someone else doing their 2k next to me.)
|by Mike - Fri 17th Dec 2004, 5:02pm|
Simon said: or commentary if I'm in a close "race" with someone else doing their 2k next to me.)Can we get Alan Green in to coach people through their 2k tests?
|by Ingers - Tue 21st Dec 2004, 2:30pm|
|I think what you should really do if you're expeiencing pain in a 2k is get to 1769m (23/26 of the way there) then stop, sit down next to the ergo and start crying. If you do that then the entire media and nation (excl. Cracknell) will take leave of their senses and spend weeks talking about how brave you are and how you deserved to do better and despite you having now come last you will be talked about in a far higher light than the other competitors who beat you.|
|by RTT - Tue 21st Dec 2004, 3:02pm|
|Indeed, if lucky, you may also gain the epithet "Our brave".|
|by dw229 - Tue 21st Dec 2004, 10:25pm|
|Finally, a route to stardom...|